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    Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

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    Zackalantis
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Zackalantis on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:26 pm

    The invasion of UKZ has been discussed many times and always with heated debate. This isn't what we need right now. The legality of the attack of the UKZ and the attacks on the UKZ is debatable. And isn't very pertinent. The cause of the war is very clear. Conflicting interests and confusion. We need not dwell on who started tge war  what we must concentrate on is preventing such a thing from happening again.
    The constant talks between SECURS and UPS is a good idea. However such must be limited to bi lateral talks only. Official UPS and SECURS forums could result in certain nations out speaking the rest.
    Regarding NTs proposal for a new form of government.I believe it could prove very useful in preventing such a war again. It is in no way futhering SECURS intetests but the collective interests of the nations of the world.

    Once again i would like to make my stance clear on Ienera. As long as they promise to protect the Shogun and all citizens who support the monarchy we will offer recognition and also help Ienera write its constitution.
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    Eurasia
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Eurasia on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:26 pm

    "The invasion of Zackalantis occurred for a number of reasons. Chief among these was that we had been unjustly attacked by Zach ships who had lied about their original purpose and claimed to be unarmed research vessels surveying seismic activity. These vessels masqueraded as scientific in nature and, when we let down our guard in the name of scientific progress, they fired on our ports and killed hundreds before fleeing to their native bases. Thus, we had no choice but to respond in kind, culminating in the daring invasion of the Zach homeland.

    Further, there were the lesser known tensions between Atanosia and Zackalantis, in which both had conducted incursions into each others' territory. These resulted in the Atenosians invading first with support Eurasian units, following the Zach announcement of war. We quickly deployed additional troops to supplement the existing forces in Atanosia, and the invasion progressed from there. Currently, Eurasian troops are still occupying portions of Zackalantis, although they will be removed should this peace conference prove successful.

    The invasion is and was a response to direct action against our nations that can be traced back to one incident. If what the Tarajani representative says is true, then the entire conflict was started when elements of the Tarajani 6th fleet fired on UPS aircraft. There was heavy fighting between Eurasian and Tarajani ships, and during that Zackalantis acted on the SECURS charter and attacked UPS nations. Following that, UPS nations fulfilled our charter and invaded Zackalantis, the main aggressor in this situation.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Zackalantis on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:49 pm

    labelling any nation as aggressor cannot be accepted. We never denied that our ships were armed. Our ships were fully armed and capable. We have not lied regarding the scientific research on the seismic activity.
    Furthermore i do not understand why EA is still occupying zach territory even when we have withdrawn all declarations of war against them. Not only that but also pledged monetary and technological aid in rebuilding what was destroyed in EA.
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    Federation of Antanares
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Federation of Antanares on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:12 pm

    "I think no one has understood us, when we suggested to divide the topic into a phase of statements and a phase of debates, argument for argument, to maintain the order.
    So, before continue we must ask something to the two parts, and we hope we would receive only two responses, one from Europe and Asia, and one from New Tarajan.
    All the parts affirmed that the conflict escalated when the tarajani forces eliminated a eurasian plane. Where did the incident happened? In the international water o in the territory of the former Tokugawa?
    Another question. If the incident was in the territory of Tokugawa, Did the eurasian plane have the permit to enter in the territory of Tokugawa? Did the forces of Tarajani had the right to defend the area?
    Before proceed in this conference, everyone must affront the truth behind its actions, without rhetoric. Only affronting the truth, we can construct a better future. How an old antanaresian write said "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Tarajan on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:32 pm

    "The answer to your question, Your Excellency, is very simple: New Tarajan was authorized by Tokugawa to proceed inside their territorial waters, and to protect it from any foreign violation of its airspace and territorial waters, and to stop the delivery of foreign military supplies to the rebels.
    And this was exactly what we did: as we wrote also to the warnings issued to all countries involved, the blockade was established with this specific aim, and we warned that our retaliation, of course, would have been made only in case of violation of that blockade, which is to say, only in case of violation of Tokugawan airspace and territorial waters.
    Thus, when we shot, it was because the Eurasian forces deliberately entered into Tokugawan airspace with the goal of forcing our blockade, thus forcing us to retaliate accordingly to our warnings and intentions.
    Thus yes, we had the right, under the clauses of our treaties with Tokugawa and their specific authorization, to defend that territory; and yes, the incident happened in Tokugawan airspace and territorial waters.

    We wish also to underline that our blockade was aimed only at stopping military supplies. As the government of Atanosia can confirm, here, we allowed them to proceed through our blockade to deliver humanitarian and first need aids without problems (except for the right to make inspections to the cargos) and even providing them with an escort for their safety.

    That's all."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Eurasia on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:20 am

    "While I appreciate the robust debate, arguing over who started the war can continue until the end of time. The UPS will say New Tarajan started it and New Tarajan will say that they had the "right" to. I believe the time of this conference would be better served if we moved on to more productive matters."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Federation of Antanares on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:31 am

    "The problem where we want to arrive is that ... Could we construct a solid base for the future if we don't affront the truth? This war could be a base, in the name of who is died, for construct a better future. But the bases must be really solid.
    I think a good one would be an official treaty of peace between the two parts, in which the two pars agreed to recognize the sovereignty of Ienara, agreed to collaborate to maintain the order and the peace and agree, how start point, to avoid in the future any intervention, where not request, in the internal affairs of a nation. This could be a first step.
    But the treaty must also be expanded. How other else said, the UPS and the SECURS need a forum where confront their opinion.
    The debate start, please, express your opinions, with order. "
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Eurasia on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:34 am

    "The UPS would be willing to construct a memorial to the fallen, perhaps in neutral territory, say the island that belongs to the Esamir government. More, a formal peace treaty would do wonders to ease tensions. In regards to a forum for UPS-SECURS communication, I think that would be best served through the Esamir Supranational Government. Most nations, even the moderators, are members of either one organization or the other."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Federation of Antanares on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:59 am

    "The idea of the treaty is full supported from Antanares. For the memorial, we think that would be a good idea create a statue, a monument ... something in every state that have lost soldiers in the war. Please, everyone, express yourself about"
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Atanea on Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:03 am

    Atanosia volunteers to design the memorial.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by United States of Europe on Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:16 am

    "As moderators,we are in favor of the positions of our colleague Antanares. Apparently here,no one is wrong and no one is right,all the countries involved had their own justifications,that are considered valid. This consideration should be the basis of any future movement in this Conference.

    So, as mentioned by Antanares,what we propose is a treaty that put an end to any kind of rivalry between the two organizations,SECURS and UPS,which fix the respective areas of influence,which in no way should be violated,and that contains an obligation for both sides to solve future disputes,multilateral or bilateral,peacefully. This treaty will have to be balanced in order to benefit both parties equally,and must be inspired by a strong ideal of neutrality. At this eventually will add up any cooperation agreements and cooperation, to promote greater international integration, and prevent the growth of new rivalries.

    As for the monument,yes,we are in favor. In our view,it should remember all those who died in this war,civilian and military,from both sides,of all nationalities. The structure should contain a memorial wall,on which are inscribed the names of the fallen. I think that the principle that this monument should bring with is not only the memory,but also a solid ideal of peace, so that similar disasters do not happen again. The monument should be placed in the Esamir Government Island.
    "
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Vajorr on Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:27 am

    We are in favor of the memorial proposed by Antanares. We also agree in a place of discussion between the two organization. The Esamir Supranational Government should work.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Eurasia on Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:24 am

    "Eurasia ill support this proposed memorial.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Aloia on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:48 am

    "Aloia agrees with our fellow moderator nations, Europe and Antanares, on their suggestions for the monuments. We recommend a large monument that represents all the nations involved in the word in neutral territory and separate monuments in each nation involved. We will also construct a monument here in Zumbrota to honor the hard work all these delegates have done and the sacrifices of the soldiers.

    "We also recommend the establishment of a treaty to end this conflict. We also recommend opening an international agency to promote cooperation and communication between nations. We recommend this agency be hosted in the neutral Esamir government island to promote its neutrality."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Vajorr on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:45 am

    "Planita agrees with the idea of the memorial on neutral territory; perhaps at the Esamir Regional Government Island. The Federal Government will donate a large sum of money for the construction of the monument.

    As for Aloia's idea of an international organization, we propose a "Congress" of sorts much like this conference as a forum of communication and cooperation. A session of the Congress will convene immediately when a crisis occurs and all nations can work for a peaceful solution. On par with Aloia's idea it will be a part of the regional government to assure its neutrality.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Tarajan on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:56 pm

    "Your Excellencies,
    we are deeply glad to see how this Conference is evolving. We will immediately take our part in the funding and construction of the monument. New Tarajan is well known in the world for the fame of its artists and the beauty of its marbles, and we will be very glad to furnish both of them, together with a substantial monetary investment, to the monument to be built.

    About the idea of a "Congress", we appreciate that there's an attempt of building mutual trust between SECURS and UPS, and to create a mechanism to ease tensions and avoid escalations.
    As we already said, New Tarajan itself proposed something similar before this war. However, we are not keen in accepting the institution of such a Congress. Why? Simply because it would be unuseful: a Congress composed by both UPS and SECURS members, to be convened when there's a particular crisis, for consultation and debate, could be easily assembled when there would be the need without its institutionalization.
    About the idea of a neutral agency, we are of the same opinion: how could it practically reach its goal?
    Moreover, both of them risks to greatly increase the amount of bureaucracy, and, paradoxically, to distant themselves from the goal they wish to attain.
    We cannot create a duplicate of the regional government (and the Congress would be indeed such a duplicate)."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by United States of Europe on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:26 pm

    "Wishing you could add this channel of diplomatic exchange and communication between the two organizations within the Esamir Parliament. A sort of "Special Commission",composed of members of both organizations,which is put to work in case of need. Then insert the dialogue between UPS and SECURS within the Regional Government."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Federation of Antanares on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:12 am

    "I think the thing we need now is the treaty, so we could start to work and debate on it"
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by United States of Europe on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:44 am

    "This is a first draft of the Treaty (called "Treaty of Zumbrota"). We pray all the nations involved to discuss it in order to improve it."


    PREAMBLE

    "This treaty was born from the ruins of war. An immense and unnecessary catastrophe,which,although not last long time,it has left an indelible mark in the minds of all the nations of the region. A tragedy that showed how violence is unnecessary and harmful,and that shows that the war did not come out winners but only losers,because we are all affected,we are all weakened,we all are starving from it,and no matter how big and powerful they may be the armies. A war that could potentially destroy the entire region. But fortunately common sense has triumphed,the word has been preferred to the bayonet,the dialogue has appeased the thunder of cannon. This is the starting point of all. This treaty represents the will of both international associations involved,UPS and SECURS,and of all the nations of the region to appease definitely mutual hatreds,to establish a lasting peace,to restore prosperity and stability,and to prevent similar events could happen again."

    UPS,SECURS and international community agree:

    Article 1: All nations,belonging to aforementioned organizations,agree to lay definitely any kind of hostility,even on the formal level,and to drop any kind of declaration of war. Each nation will have to give up the conquest made during the period of war and to return in the original borders,so as to restore the status quo prior to such event.

    Article 2: UPS and SECURS agree to put aside any kind of strategic rivalry and recognize each other's right to existence,rejecting any interference in the internal affairs of them. Each of the two organizations will have its own zone of influence,corresponding to the member countries. These areas must not be violated in any way,except in case of mutual agreement.

    Article 3: UPS and SECURS undertake to contribute fully and constructively to the full global development and promote greater international integration,within the institutions of the Esamir Regional Government and the international community. They also undertake to cooperate in solving international problems more pressing. The Treaty also encourages greater collaboration between the two organizations,through specific multilateral and bilateral agreements.

    Article 4: UPS and SECURS undertake to resolve any future disputes exclusively by diplomatic means,giving up in advance the use of weapons. The dedicated channel for diplomatic communications will be the "Special Commission on UPS-SECURS Affairs",organized within the Esamir Parliament. It will be composed by member countries of the two organizations,and will always be activated in case of need. Its unique and exclusive role will be the discussion and resolution of any future disputes.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Atanea on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:56 am

    Considering the difference between the interests of UPS and SECURS, along with the goals of both organizations being the complete opposite of each other, another confrontation between the blocs is inevitable and therefore Atanosia can not sign the agreement. It is either an agreement on stopping the war or no agreement at all.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by Zackalantis on Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:11 am

    The agreement is good. It speaks about the ending of war and prevention of further conflict. However the last article is it truly necessary?
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by United States of Europe on Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:30 am

    "This treaty is not born only to end the present war,but also to prevent new ones. That is the ultimate goal. Without Article 4,all of the text would no longer make any sense,and a new world war could break out also tomorrow morning. As to the doubts of Atenosia,I think they are unfounded,unless the highest aspiration of UPS and SECURS is mutual annihilation. Am I wrong or is in everyone's interest to avoid new conflicts? If not,then we have only lost time with this Conference."
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Atanea on Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:39 am

    United States of Europe wrote:
    "This treaty is not born only to end the present war,but also to prevent new ones. That is the ultimate goal. Without Article 4,all of the text would no longer make any sense,and a new world war could break out also tomorrow morning. As to the doubts of Atenosia,I think they are unfounded,unless the highest aspiration of UPS and SECURS is mutual annihilation. Am I wrong or is in everyone's interest to avoid new conflicts? If not,then we have only lost time with this Conference."
    Each side is interested in protecting and spreading their own interests and since both sides threaten the other's interests, their most prefered solution will be eliminating the other so that their interests will prevail.
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    Re: Conference of Zumbrota on SECURS-UPS Relations

    Post by New Tarajan on Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:22 am

    "We wish to ask to the UPS as a whole if its position reflects the unresponsible words of the Atanosian delegates. Because their arrogance is sincerely outrageous, and counter-productive for the aims of this Conference.
    Don't rise yourself to high, Atanosia.

    On the other side, we deeply thank the European delegates for the job of making a first draft of the Treaty. New Tarajan, with our friend Zackalantis, is deeply glad to accept it."

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